Data: Dassault SAAB JAS 39
Rafale Gripen
Crew: 1 (C/M) 1
2 (B/BM) 2 (B)
Engine: 2 SNECMA 1 Volvo Aero
M88-2 RM12
16,850 lb 18,100 lb
each max
Max. Speed: Mach 1.8 Mach 1.8
Gun: 30mm Giat 27mm Mauser
DEFA 791B BK 27
Internal: None None
External: 14 stations 7 stations
13,228 lb RB 74 aams,RB 75 asms,
ASMP nuke,8 MICA aams, rockets, DWS 39 Cluster,
AM 39 Exocet,LGBs, RBS 15 Anti-Ship,AIM-120
AS 30L ASMs,APACHE,SCALP or Matra Mica aams
Features: Composite construction Composite construction
blended wing/fuselage
shoulder conformal tanks*
Supercruise: No No
Radar: Thales RBE2 Ericsson PS-05/A
Systems: Spectra integrated EW 3 MFDs
Sidestick HOTAS
LCD Displays Wide angle Holo-HUD
Helmet-mounted Sight Helmet-mounted Sight
Wide angle HUD IRST
Voice controls Podded FLIR
Front sector optronics EW
Initial Order: 294 Units 204 Units

Rob

"robert arndt" > skrev i meddelandet
om...

> Data: Dassault SAAB JAS 39
Rafale Gripen
> Initial Order: 294 Units 204 Units

It's correct that a total of 204 Gripens have been ordered for the RSwAF, but what
about the 28 Gripen ordered for the SA Air Force?
http://www.saab.se/node3299.asp?id=199909150067
http://www.saab.se/node3299.asp?id=199909160042

Don't they count?


Regards,

Per Nordenberg

"Per Nordenberg" > wrote in message
...
> "robert arndt" > skrev i meddelandet
> om...
>
> > Data: Dassault SAAB JAS 39
> Rafale Gripen
> > Initial Order: 294 Units 204 Units
>
> It's correct that a total of 204 Gripens have been ordered for the RSwAF,
but what
> about the 28 Gripen ordered for the SA Air Force?
> http://www.saab.se/node3299.asp?id=199909150067
> http://www.saab.se/node3299.asp?id=199909160042
>
> Don't they count?

Perhaps they are not technically "initial order" (but then, neither is 204,
IIRC, first order was like 30 planes).

At any rate, export prospects of Gripen are considerably brighter than those
of Rafale...

"Yama" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
>
> "Per Nordenberg" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "robert arndt" > skrev i meddelandet
> > om...
> >
> > > Data: Dassault SAAB JAS 39
> > Rafale Gripen
> > > Initial Order: 294 Units 204 Units
> >
> > It's correct that a total of 204 Gripens have been ordered for the
RSwAF,
> but what
> > about the 28 Gripen ordered for the SA Air Force?
> > http://www.saab.se/node3299.asp?id=199909150067
> > http://www.saab.se/node3299.asp?id=199909160042
> >
> > Don't they count?
>
> Perhaps they are not technically "initial order" (but then, neither is
204,
> IIRC, first order was like 30 planes).
>
> At any rate, export prospects of Gripen are considerably brighter than
those
> of Rafale...
>

At any rate,it's considerably cheaper
At any rate,it's considerably lighter
At any rate,it's considerably more exportable...

(Both are good aircrafts,though)

>

(robert arndt) wrote in message >...
> Data: Dassault SAAB JAS 39
> Rafale Gripen
> Crew: 1 (C/M) 1
> 2 (B/BM) 2 (B)
> Engine: 2 SNECMA 1 Volvo Aero
> M88-2 RM12
> 16,850 lb 18,100 lb
> each max
> Max. Speed: Mach 1.8 Mach 1.8
> Gun: 30mm Giat 27mm Mauser
> DEFA 791B BK 27
> Internal: None None
> External: 14 stations 7 stations
> 13,228 lb RB 74 aams,RB 75 asms,
> ASMP nuke,8 MICA aams, rockets, DWS 39 Cluster,
> AM 39 Exocet,LGBs, RBS 15 Anti-Ship,AIM-120
> AS 30L ASMs,APACHE,SCALP or Matra Mica aams
> Features: Composite construction Composite construction
> blended wing/fuselage
> shoulder conformal tanks*
> Supercruise: No No
> Radar: Thales RBE2 Ericsson PS-05/A
> Systems: Spectra integrated EW 3 MFDs
> Sidestick HOTAS
> LCD Displays Wide angle Holo-HUD
> Helmet-mounted Sight Helmet-mounted Sight
> Wide angle HUD IRST
> Voice controls Podded FLIR
> Front sector optronics EW
> Initial Order: 294 Units 204 Units
>
> Rob



The JAS 39 is in service. The Rafael is not.

Key information that is missing is the radar aperature for the antena
and also radar equavalent cross section. In an environment of MICA
and AMRAAM first shoot often mean first kill.

Fiture versions of JAS 39 may be available with EF200 engines (as in
Eurofighter) as well as 'stealth' and thrust vectoring.

(The Enlightenment) wrote in message >...
> (robert arndt) wrote in message >...
> > Data: Dassault SAAB JAS 39
> > Rafale Gripen
> > Crew: 1 (C/M) 1
> > 2 (B/BM) 2 (B)
> > Engine: 2 SNECMA 1 Volvo Aero
> > M88-2 RM12
> > 16,850 lb 18,100 lb
> > each max
> > Max. Speed: Mach 1.8 Mach 1.8
> > Gun: 30mm Giat 27mm Mauser
> > DEFA 791B BK 27
> > Internal: None None
> > External: 14 stations 7 stations
> > 13,228 lb RB 74 aams,RB 75 asms,
> > ASMP nuke,8 MICA aams, rockets, DWS 39 Cluster,
> > AM 39 Exocet,LGBs, RBS 15 Anti-Ship,AIM-120
> > AS 30L ASMs,APACHE,SCALP or Matra Mica aams
> > Features: Composite construction Composite construction
> > blended wing/fuselage
> > shoulder conformal tanks*
> > Supercruise: No No
> > Radar: Thales RBE2 Ericsson PS-05/A
> > Systems: Spectra integrated EW 3 MFDs
> > Sidestick HOTAS
> > LCD Displays Wide angle Holo-HUD
> > Helmet-mounted Sight Helmet-mounted Sight
> > Wide angle HUD IRST
> > Voice controls Podded FLIR
> > Front sector optronics EW
> > Initial Order: 294 Units 204 Units
> >
> > Rob
>
>
>
> The JAS 39 is in service. The Rafael is not.
>
> The Rafale M has been operational with the French carrier Charles de Gaulle since 2001:

http://frenchnavy.free.fr/aircraft/rafale/images/rafale_016.JPG

Rob

In article >, "Mike"
> wrote:

> "Yama" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> ...
> >
> > "Per Nordenberg" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "robert arndt" > skrev i meddelandet
> > > om...
> > >
> > > > Data: Dassault SAAB JAS 39
> > > Rafale Gripen
> > > > Initial Order: 294 Units 204 Units
> > >
> > > It's correct that a total of 204 Gripens have been ordered for the
> RSwAF,
> > but what
> > > about the 28 Gripen ordered for the SA Air Force?
> > > http://www.saab.se/node3299.asp?id=199909150067
> > > http://www.saab.se/node3299.asp?id=199909160042
> > >
> > > Don't they count?
> >
> > Perhaps they are not technically "initial order" (but then, neither is
> 204,
> > IIRC, first order was like 30 planes).
> >
> > At any rate, export prospects of Gripen are considerably brighter than
> those
> > of Rafale...
> >
>
> At any rate,it's considerably cheaper
> At any rate,it's considerably lighter
> At any rate,it's considerably more exportable...
>
> (Both are good aircrafts,though)

I would dispute that the Gripen in more exportable. There is some U.S.
content in the Gripen which requires U.S. export approval for third party sales.

I don't think that's the case with the Rafale.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

In article >,
(The Enlightenment) wrote:

> (robert arndt) wrote in message
>...
> > Data: Dassault SAAB JAS 39
> > Rafale Gripen
> > Crew: 1 (C/M) 1
> > 2 (B/BM) 2 (B)
> > Engine: 2 SNECMA 1 Volvo Aero
> > M88-2 RM12
> > 16,850 lb 18,100 lb
> > each max
> > Max. Speed: Mach 1.8 Mach 1.8
> > Gun: 30mm Giat 27mm Mauser
> > DEFA 791B BK 27
> > Internal: None None
> > External: 14 stations 7 stations
> > 13,228 lb RB 74 aams,RB 75 asms,
> > ASMP nuke,8 MICA aams, rockets, DWS 39 Cluster,
> > AM 39 Exocet,LGBs, RBS 15 Anti-Ship,AIM-120
> > AS 30L ASMs,APACHE,SCALP or Matra Mica aams
> > Features: Composite construction Composite construction
> > blended wing/fuselage
> > shoulder conformal tanks*
> > Supercruise: No No
> > Radar: Thales RBE2 Ericsson PS-05/A
> > Systems: Spectra integrated EW 3 MFDs
> > Sidestick HOTAS
> > LCD Displays Wide angle Holo-HUD
> > Helmet-mounted Sight Helmet-mounted Sight
> > Wide angle HUD IRST
> > Voice controls Podded FLIR
> > Front sector optronics EW
> > Initial Order: 294 Units 204 Units
> >
> > Rob
>
> The JAS 39 is in service. The Rafael is not.
>
> Key information that is missing is the radar aperature for the antena
> and also radar equavalent cross section. In an environment of MICA
> and AMRAAM first shoot often mean first kill.
>
> Fiture versions of JAS 39 may be available with EF200 engines (as in
> Eurofighter) as well as 'stealth' and thrust vectoring.

Future versions of Gripen will have an AESA radar as well.
http://www.eetuk.com/story/OEG20010626S0010
www.ericsson.com/microwave/press/case/aesa.pdf

Something I've been working on personally.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

(The Enlightenment) wrote in
m:

>
> The JAS 39 is in service. The Rafael is not.

I believe the Rafale M has been fully squadron operational
on the Charles De Gaulle since the summer of 2002.


Regards...

In article >, "Mike"
> wrote:

> Ah?
> You really think it isn't more easy to sell a single engine that a
> twin,which is 50% more expensive?And that there are as many markets for it?
> So,why didn't you sell as many F.15s as F.16s?
>
> The Gripen is a very good fighter,but the comparison with the Rafale is
> curious.I would rather compare it to the F.16-60 or the Mirage 2000-5.But I
> maybe wrong.
>
> The US approval is not often a problem when it can help beating a french
> plane on a market you know...And it has not been for the Gripen yet...
> Let's bet it won't change!

Cost/price is a lot different than exportability. Some relatively inexpensive
things just cannot be exported under existing rules.

For example: EW firmware held up the sale of the F-16 Block 60 to the UAE
for a really long time. The cost wasn't an issue at all.

While I agree that maybe the Rafale and Gripen are not a good comparison,
I was just commenting on someone else's email.

regards

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

Ok with you.We have the same problem.for example,in the 80's,some sales of
the early M2000s were lost because we could not export the RDI radar,and the
RDM,that was proposed,was really ....

But I don't think this can make a difference on export sales between JAS39
and Rafale.We could have the same problem on some markets,not because of a
foreign govt,like for the Gripen,but because of our.


"Harry Andreas" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> In article >, "Mike"
> > wrote:
>
> > Ah?
> > You really think it isn't more easy to sell a single engine that a
> > twin,which is 50% more expensive?And that there are as many markets for
it?
> > So,why didn't you sell as many F.15s as F.16s?
> >
> > The Gripen is a very good fighter,but the comparison with the Rafale is
> > curious.I would rather compare it to the F.16-60 or the Mirage
2000-5.But I
> > maybe wrong.
> >
> > The US approval is not often a problem when it can help beating a french
> > plane on a market you know...And it has not been for the Gripen yet...
> > Let's bet it won't change!
>
> Cost/price is a lot different than exportability. Some relatively
inexpensive
> things just cannot be exported under existing rules.
>
> For example: EW firmware held up the sale of the F-16 Block 60 to the UAE
> for a really long time. The cost wasn't an issue at all.
>
> While I agree that maybe the Rafale and Gripen are not a good comparison,
> I was just commenting on someone else's email.
>
> regards
>
> --
> Harry Andreas
> Engineering raconteur

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:07:04 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote:

(The Enlightenment) wrote in
m:
>
>>
>> The JAS 39 is in service. The Rafael is not.
>
> I believe the Rafale M has been fully squadron operational
> on the Charles De Gaulle since the summer of 2002.
>
>
> Regards...

The Rafale and the CdG, made for each other Talk about disasters!!

Al Minyard

Bla,bla,bla.....
stronger than you,Minyard...


"Alan Minyard" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:07:04 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" >
wrote:
>
> (The Enlightenment) wrote in
> m:
> >
> >>
> >> The JAS 39 is in service. The Rafael is not.
> >
> > I believe the Rafale M has been fully squadron operational
> > on the Charles De Gaulle since the summer of 2002.
> >
> >
> > Regards...
>
> The Rafale and the CdG, made for each other Talk about disasters!!
>
> Al Minyard